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Vulnerable ankles

    Tue, 2008-01-01 11:39 — BJJ_Enzo

    In UFC 79, Machida took Sokoudjou's back and promptly crossed his ankles. I have seen other mma fighter's regularly cross their ankles from the same position. If the proper defense is applied this can be a vulnerable position for the attacker. Additionally, the attacker's ankle is vulnerable when applying a figure four body lock like the one used by GSP. However, I don't remember seeing anyone in mma attempting the appropriate defenses. ???

    GAZZY's picture

    BJJ_Enzo;15854 wrote:
    In UFC 79, Machida took Sokoudjou's back and promptly crossed his ankles. I have seen other mma fighter's regularly cross their ankles from the same position. If the proper defense is applied this can be a vulnerable position for the attacker. Additionally, the attacker's ankle is vulnerable when applying a figure four body lock like the one used by GSP. However, I don't remember seeing anyone in mma attempting the appropriate defenses. ???

    actually it does work.. it really depends on the amount of flexibility the person has in their ankles. I've seen people that it does nothing to, and other people that can't handle the slightest pressure being applied when in that position and being attacked.

    I believe the reason why the proper defense is not even attempted is because it's a heat of the moment thing, and under that much pressure and with so much adrenaline, most fighters can miss the little details. That's why it's so important in any type of match, to stay calm and focused. you can see things more clear during a match when you keep calm.

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    overcat's picture

    GAZZY;15931 wrote:
    actually it does work.. it really depends on the amount of flexibility the person has in their ankles. I've seen people that it does nothing to, and other people that can't handle the slightest pressure being applied when in that position and being attacked.

    I believe the reason why the proper defense is not even attempted is because it's a heat of the moment thing, and under that much pressure and with so much adrenaline, most fighters can miss the little details. That's why it's so important in any type of match, to stay calm and focused. you can see things more clear during a match when you keep calm.

    it might work on a newbie during a grappling match, but when you have a black belt like Machida (withy crazy back pressure) throwing punches and going for the RNC, it's not gonna work. did you see the way Hughes tried to grab BJ's foot in their first match? seconds later he was choked into lala land! lol

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    GAZZY's picture

    overcat;15962 wrote:
    it might work on a newbie during a grappling match, but when you have a black belt like Machida (withy crazy back pressure) throwing punches and going for the RNC, it's not gonna work. did you see the way Hughes tried to grab BJ's foot in their first match? seconds later he was choked into lala land! lol

    I disagree. I still think that if applied properly, meaning the opponent's ankles would need to be competely crossed with no room to uncross after the lock down of the attacker, it can be accomplished. if the atackee attempts the defense meanwhile lifting the chin and leaving space for that guy on the back to insert a RNC, then he/she is screwed. It may not be a common thing to see, but still very possible. but what do I know after ten years of bjj.....

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    Alabama_Man's picture

    another good move that i've seen bj penn and marcelo garcia do is trap the opponents arm by catching the arm above the waist with crossed ankles.

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    TheComish's picture

    Alabama_Man;16005 wrote:
    another good move that i've seen bj penn and marcelo garcia do is trap the opponents arm by catching the arm above the waist with crossed ankles.

    Everyone at MILLENNIA knows... Javier "Showtime" Vazquez 101

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    lorenzodamarith's picture

    hello,

    good stuff. makes sense.

    thanks

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    GAZZY's picture

    wow.. good job bee!

    nice photos!

    scotty just wants the neck! ahhaaaa...

    but ya if the ankles are that high you're safe!!

    btw, baret's body triangle SUCKS to be in.. :(

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    owl scowlz's picture

    i actually tapped a guy who did this once.

    we were both white belts at the time and he was a wrestler. 7 times out of ten he would squash me. anyway one time he got on my back and crossed his ankles then i crossed mine over his top crossed led and arched, he tapped immediately and i felt it was alot of pressure. but true you will probably never catch it on a peson with any real time on the mat unless you are really quick with it.

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    Alabama_Man's picture

    owl scowlz;16078 wrote:
    we were both white belts at the time and he was a wrestler. 7 times out of ten he would squash me. anyway one time he got on my back and crossed his ankles then i crossed mine over his top crossed led and arched, he tapped immediately and i felt it was alot of pressure. but true you will probably never catch it on a peson with any real time on the mat unless you are really quick with it.

    "whitebelt" is the operative word here. also, when you tapped the wrestler you were no longer a whitebelt but an "extreme whitebelt."

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    lorenzodamarith's picture

    Alabama_Man;16105 wrote:
    "whitebelt" is the operative word here. also, when you tapped the wrestler you were no longer a whitebelt but an "extreme whitebelt."

    hello,

    "extreme whitebelt"... NICE!!!!!!

    thanks

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    lorenzodamarith's picture

    owl scowlz;16078 wrote:
    we were both white belts at the time and he was a wrestler. 7 times out of ten he would squash me. anyway one time he got on my back and crossed his ankles then i crossed mine over his top crossed led and arched, he tapped immediately and i felt it was alot of pressure. but true you will probably never catch it on a peson with any real time on the mat unless you are really quick with it.

    hello,

    after many "squashings", must have been fun to get it!

    thanks

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    owl scowlz's picture

    yeah he was one of those guys you almost don't want to tap out because you know how pissed it makes him, and the anger makes everyone uncomfortable. he was an ok guy just ultra competative. but one day he was being to rough again and made my freinds nose bleed so my freind cranked an armbar on he ass. we didn't see him after that. we suspected little pp syndrome

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    GAZZY's picture

    good pictures! javi is awesome!

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    KibunInc's picture

    I keep hearing everyone saying that only white belts tap to this style of ankle locks. I ankle lock people who put body triangles on me all of the time. If you think that you will not tap from them then come on down, but don't cry when your ankle gets broken.

    About 90% of my submissions come from ankle locks. What I am guessing here is that most people do not apply the ankle lock correctly so many people here think that they can get out of them. Any lock propely applied can submitt anyone.

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    overcat's picture

    KibunInc;16137 wrote:
    I keep hearing everyone saying that only white belts tap to this style of ankle locks. I ankle lock people who put body triangles on me all of the time. If you think that you will not tap from them then come on down, but don't cry when your ankle gets broken.

    About 90% of my submissions come from ankle locks. What I am guessing here is that most people do not apply the ankle lock correctly so many people here think that they can get out of them. Any lock propely applied can submitt anyone.

    are you saying you'd tap Baret (or other advanced guys) if they came down to your gym and body-triangled you?

    what i am guessing here is that most of the people you train with don't apply the body-triangle correctly. any body-triangle properly applied can control the back and set up the RNC.

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    lorenzodamarith's picture

    overcat;16147 wrote:
    are you saying you'd tap Baret (or other advanced guys) if they came down to your gym and body-triangled you?

    what i am guessing here is that most of the people you train with don't apply the body-triangle correctly. any body-triangle properly applied can control the back and set up the RNC.

    hello,

    overcat? alabamaman? is this something of an "impossible situation" for the defender?

    kibuninc, chances are we will be working on this very thing quite soon.

    thanks

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    GAZZY's picture

    now i'm curious.. let me know what u guys come up with after working on it!

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    lorenzodamarith's picture

    Hillbilly;16293 wrote:
    Baret's body triangle looks indestructable!!!!:eek:

    hello,

    well, baretyoshida IS kinda good at that sort of thing!

    thanks

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    KibunInc's picture

    Hello, I am about to go out of town for a week but will still try to check in on this site.

    TO explain better I am talking about a body triangle from behind. My opponenet has his legs around my midsection with one of his feet under his other knee creaing a body triangle from behind. He is usually working a RNC from that position.

    Here goes my best explination of the move: Your opponents leg which is NOT creating the triangle (The leg that his foot is behind his knee), trap that foot (leg) with your leg that is on the same side of your body. You can trap it by putting your foot (leg) over the top of his leg. Basically stopping him from straightening his leg. Push down on his knee on the leg which is creating the triangle and move it towards your hip. Now on the side (hip) that his foot is on that is hooked behind his own knee creating the triangle....hip into him (Arch upwards). this will create one wicked achillis (sp) crush. I know this is a pain move but this shit really hurts. Try it at class and see what I am saying.

    Also regarding tapping a high level BB with this move...yes on several occassions, including once when I applied it too fast the BB punched me in the face from behind as he was trying to tap quickly.

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    lorenzodamarith's picture

    KibunInc;16338 wrote:
    Hello, I am about to go out of town for a week but will still try to check in on this site.

    TO explain better I am talking about a body triangle from behind. My opponenet has his legs around my midsection with one of his feet under his other knee creaing a body triangle from behind. He is usually working a RNC from that position.

    Here goes my best explination of the move: Your opponents leg which is NOT creating the triangle (The leg that his foot is behind his knee), trap that foot (leg) with your leg that is on the same side of your body. You can trap it by putting your foot (leg) over the top of his leg. Basically stopping him from straightening his leg. Push down on his knee on the leg which is creating the triangle and move it towards your hip. Now on the side (hip) that his foot is on that is hooked behind his own knee creating the triangle....hip into him (Arch upwards). this will create one wicked achillis (sp) crush. I know this is a pain move but this shit really hurts. Try it at class and see what I am saying.

    Also regarding tapping a high level BB with this move...yes on several occassions, including once when I applied it too fast the BB punched me in the face from behind as he was trying to tap quickly.

    hello,

    have a good trip amigo!
    yes. this is a nice explaination. easy to picture.
    we will try it in class, neh?

    thanks

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    lorenzodamarith's picture

    Gumby;16342 wrote:
    I once saw a purple belt tap in competition because he crossed his ankles while taking the back. Aside from popping his ankle pretty badly, he just about wanted to die from embaressment, so I won't mention his name.

    Javi showed me some cool tricks he would use to bait his opponent when taking the back, including showing crossed ankles. The last thing you would want to do is reach down, because then your arms would be getting pinned to your side for sure.

    In the gi I'm likely to cross my ankles if my feet are above the waist actually. I tend to look for the bow and arrow choke more frequently than the RNC in those situations (actually, my current favorite submission). Below the waist I never cross, but I'm flexible enough to hold tight by pressing the soles of my feet together.

    hello,

    bow and arrow choke? gumby? what is this? another name perhaps?

    thanks

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    TheComish's picture

    lorenzodamarith;16346 wrote:
    hello,

    bow and arrow choke? gumby? what is this? another name perhaps?

    thanks
    Google my friend...

    http://judoforum.com/lofiversion/index.php/t13851.html

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    lorenzodamarith's picture

    hello,

    well... that looks less than inviting! hahahahahahahahaha! thecomish, your consideration is appreciated.

    thanks

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    KibunInc's picture

    I was able to log on here in Miss. Hve to use dial up :( I like the choke you are talking about Gumby but it is a GI move. I tend to ankle lock people alot and the one ankle lock I was talking about is against the body triangle.

    I have worked out with Javi and he is a great guy. I believe he is back at Mellinium JJ now. Yes one of Javi's favorite moves is trap the arm which is reaching down for the foot by using his leg. I have been cuaght with that move before.

    The original reason for the post earlier is that people were saying higher belts will not get caught with these anle locks from the back. It does not matter your belt, if you get caught in a deep ankle lock you will tap or it will pop. Yes the more experience you have it is harder to catch a person with a move but in the body triangle your opponent traps his own foot for you, making it easier to be able to do the lock. In a sense he gives you part of the move. No offense ment ot any of the top quality BB we have here. If they are able to counter this ankle lock..Pleeease let me know. I learn something new everyday and I hope to keep learning for the rest of my life.

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    lorenzodamarith's picture

    KibunInc;16462 wrote:
    If they are able to counter this ankle lock..Pleeease let me know. I learn something new everyday and I hope to keep learning for the rest of my life.

    hello,

    agreed kibuninc. something like this would be good to know. however, some of us only learn things every OTHER day..... short bus and all that!

    hahahahahahahahahaha!!

    did javier close his academy? or is he at millenium part time? just curious.

    thanks

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    lorenzodamarith's picture

    hello,

    recently got to work with kibuninc on the ankle thing he mentioned on this thread.

    by "work with" we mean "kibuninc layeth the whuppass down"! kidding. he did teach a rather thorough treatment of this ankle attack vs body triangle.

    wow. very high "suckage factor". if you get hit with it, your days now sucks. BIG TIME! all in all, a good, effective and easy technique!

    appreciate it kibuninc!

    thanks

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    KibunInc's picture

    Thanks for the compliment. I also like to attack the ankles against the rubber guard and x guard. I am by no means saying that I am anything special when it comes to ankle locks but I do like them alot and I enjoy working them.

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    lorenzodamarith's picture

    KibunInc;19461 wrote:
    Thanks for the compliment. I also like to attack the ankles against the rubber guard and x guard. I am by no means saying that I am anything special when it comes to ankle locks but I do like them alot and I enjoy working them.

    hello,

    it is easy to enjoy something that works/yields dividends. showed it to the guys and they LOVED it. we actually began a serious discussion about reevaluating various positions and learning "what is possible". also, this has lead to some serious "positional paranoia" among us. hahahahahahahahaha!! noone feels safe now! and we have YOU to thank for that kibuninc! hahahahahahahahahaha!!

    thanks

    Your rating: None
    KibunInc's picture

    Thanks. If people are re-thinking positions then they are advancing in knowledge. That makes me happy, thanks for the post.

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    lorenzodamarith's picture

    KibunInc;19471 wrote:
    Thanks. If people are re-thinking positions then they are advancing in knowledge. That makes me happy, thanks for the post.

    hello,

    welcome of course! oh yeah, the article is nearly done. didn't have as much time as initially thought to get it done. but it is really really good material!!

    thanks

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    fragile's picture

    Kibun! How do you ankle lock when in his rubber guard? This could be big for me...
    Thx

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    KibunInc's picture

    fragile;19484 wrote:
    Kibun! How do you ankle lock when in his rubber guard? This could be big for me...
    Thx

    Let me go to the thai gym and when I come back later tonight (Hopefully not with a broken nose like on Tuesday night), I will break down how to get the ankles from various positions.

    Your rating: None
    KibunInc's picture

    Ok I am back now and I will try to explain the moves the best I can.

    When I roll with guys who us the rubber guard I notice they tend to use a high guard position with their feet. If their foot is across my upper back which ever side their foot is on I reach up with that hand and grab their toes/foot. I then pull down on the foot while arching up with my back and head. This creates a calf crush using my upper back/head.

    Sometimes I put my arm down to my opponents side while in his guard. My hand is along his hip and I know I am asking for an omaplata on that arm. I position my knee on my opponents tail bone( In the same way you use when breaking open a guard), and wait for the omaplata. As my opponent brings his foot over my shoulder for the omaplata I sit on my leg (Which is against his taibone) and I arch my shoulders backwards slightly. This stops him from pushing my face downwards with his leg creating the omaplata. Now that I have sat back against the move I reach up and grab his foot and pull down on it creating a calf crush. If he then moves his foot down my arm to avoid the calf crush the omaplata is lost and I can roll out of it.

    If my opponent goes from Omaplata to a gogoplata then when he brings his foot to the front of my throat I either sink my chin down or pull my head upwards. As my opponent reaches up to pull on the back of my head I grab his toes/foot and pull it downwards towards the insid of his calf. This is a modified toe hold and in a qcik response situation you can grab the toes with either hand.

    All of these moves do not work all of the time but I find that when I start to use these toes holds on people they suddenly do not want to use the rubber guard any more. It at least takes them out of their game.

    I rolled with a guy who used the inverted guard alot. After he kept putting his feet in front of me I started to grab hsi feet and going for a toe hold. He was good and got out of them but after the third toe hold he stopped using the inverted guard.

    I by no means am anyone special in JJ. I use a very simple theory that if you put your feet in front of me I am going for a hold on them. I know there are alot of great JJ people and please give me input on what I do. I try to learn something new everyday and I look forward to learning counters to my counters.

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    Alabama_Man's picture

    one of my training partners (piggle a.k.a. twomanarmy a.k.a. leglockfan) from mma.tv gets me in a toehold all the time from the homo-plata setup from the rubber guard, my fren. still not sure how he does it...

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    GAZZY's picture

    what type of ankle locks are u talking about kibun? the ankle lock when someone has hooks while on the back and crosses the ankles? or when they have a figure 4 on your back? or do you mean just regular straight ankle locks?

    I agree with this part of owl scowlz post only I'd change the word never to "rarely" "but true you will probably never catch it on a person with any real time on the mat unless you are really quick with it. "

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    Alabama_Man's picture

    ^^^ no one is doubting the efficacy of ankle locks, my fren. but you are saying you reguarly catch a footlock on purples and above when they have your back with the body triangle?

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    TheComish's picture

    Make sure to keep your feet up high if you have there back. If they drop down lower then they are way more susceptible.

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    Alabama_Man's picture

    Only vulnerable if white belt my fren. No one any good will get caught with that weak @ss $hit.

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    overcat's picture

    Alabama_Man;15856 wrote:
    Only vulnerable if white belt my fren. No one any good will get caught with that weak @ss .

    exactly. just watch the first Penn-Hughes fight or the Frye-Tank fight. going for that weak ass desperation ankle-crush (while a high level grappler is on your back) is pretty much asking to be choked.

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