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-cop body slams jerk at ufc 91

    overcat's picture

    DeltaSigChi4;23722 wrote:
    Right. And Ray Sefo and his brother were involved, but only in the sense that Ray was attacked without rhyme/reason. In no way deserving of getting thrown on the back of their neck on unforgiving steel steps. Same category I put the gentleman with the Affliction® attire. That's just my view. I understand others have other views, and I respect those views.

    E

    you don't know what you're talking about.

    Ray Sefo is the guy in the suit and his brother is the guy in the yellow t-shirt.

    they were no way involved, as you can clearly see them walking away to avoid the situation.

    the dude in the Affliction shirt should have done the same as the Sefo's, but instead he tried to be a tough guy and choke the other dude, so he got tossed.

    Your rating: None
    DeltaSigChi4's picture

    You don't know what you're talking about. The Sefos [Ray in suit, Rony in yellow tshirt] were CLEARLY involved at the beginning of the video, and before the taping by the cameraman began, reportedly. Everyone who was in that section [and the section above] that actually isn't a TUF-era® fanboy and witnessed the melee realised who Ray was and realised that it all started with an attempted strike by the drunken female subject on RAY SEFO. Watch the video. Obrigado.

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    Your rating: None
    overcat's picture

    DeltaSigChi4;23730 wrote:
    You don't know what you're talking about. The Sefos [Ray in suit, Rony in yellow tshirt] were CLEARLY involved at the beginning of the video, and before the taping by the cameraman began, reportedly. Everyone who was in that section [and the section above] that actually isn't a TUF-era® fanboy and witnessed the melee realised who Ray was and realised that it all started with an attempted strike by the drunken female subject on RAY SEFO. Watch the video. Obrigado.

    E

    first, you come off thinking you know more about public fight control than KibunInc (a cop). now you think the Sefo's (the supossed victims) who walked away from the fight were the ones at fault, when the douche that got thrown was the one actually choking someone.

    p.s. - why are you trying to tell me what the Sefo's are wearing in the video, when I just got finished telling you that? :confused:

    Your rating: None
    DeltaSigChi4's picture

    I don't have to explain why I question things. I have nothing but the utmost appreciation for KibunInc's patience with going over any concerns brought up over law enforcement. With that being said, I'm not worried as to how I come off to you. I don't know more about controlling melees as a police officer than KibunInc - that's more than obvious.

    Now where did I claim that Sefos were at fault? Where did I even use the term "fault", until this very post?

    E

    Your rating: None
    overcat's picture

    DeltaSigChi4;23738 wrote:
    Now where did I claim that Sefos were at fault? Where did I even use the term "fault", until this very post?

    to answer that, i will quote you:

    "The Sefos [Ray in suit, Rony in yellow tshirt] were CLEARLY involved at the beginning of the video"

    the BIG difference is they walked away and weren't choking anyone (like the dude that got tossed) when the police arrived.

    Your rating: None
    DeltaSigChi4's picture

    You make a lot of assumptions for someone who not too long ago was questioning someone else's questioning of the facts of the event.

    You assume that the gentleman was at fault for performing a hold on another person, a hold that could have been applied in an attempt to maintain the peace in the vicinity that a violent individual was going to engage in general havoc. It must be quite difficult to be such an all-knowing arbitrator of everything germane. I'll call you Judge Overcat from now on.

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    Your rating: None
    overcat's picture

    DeltaSigChi4;23745 wrote:
    You make a lot of assumptions for someone who not too long ago was questioning someone else's questioning of the facts of the event.

    that doesn't make any sense. you were the one insinuating that the Sefo brothers were just as guitly as the Affliction guy who was choking someone.

    DeltaSigChi4;23745 wrote:
    You assume that the gentleman was at fault for performing a hold on another person, a hold that could have been applied in an attempt to maintain the peace in the vicinity that a violent individual was going to engage in general havoc.

    the police were clearly already on their way. instead of removing himself from the situation (like the Sefo brothers) and letting the police do their job...he decided to get violent, so he got tossed out of the way for being violent.

    Your rating: None
    DeltaSigChi4's picture

    Thank you for the summary, Judge Overcat.

    E

    Your rating: None
    DeltaSigChi4's picture

    That Metro officer recklessly slammed the WRONG party in that altercation. You can notice that several people say "it's not him; he was HELPING!, et cetera." It's a truly sad state of affairs when a LVMPD police officer decides that he's bad ass enough to want to pull off some 'ultimate fighting' stuff on a citizen without first ascertaining who's who in the crowd. And on steel with very unforgiving edges [steps] to boot. Abysmal. And dispicable.

    What if that guy had been seriously injured? Then it's the taxpayer that pays. That cop should be suspended.

    E

    Your rating: None
    KibunInc's picture

    First of all thanks for posting the vid. Second that was a nice slam.
    :eek:
    With that aside lets go over what we can see and hear. We see other people in the fight at the start of the video. We do hear someone say he is just trying to help. What else can we see. Before we jump to conclusions take into consideration how much of the video we can not see. Is it possible that the cop had a better view then us. I do not know what was happening on the ground but is it possible that the guy who got slammed was actually pounding the shit out of the guy on the ground. I do not know as I could not see. Yes someone did say he is only trying to help. This does not mean much to me as I remember chasing a susppect who fled from a stolen car. I chased him about a block and a half on foot before I tackeled him. While I was fighting with him on the ground people walked by and were saying, "Hey let him go what did he do." WTF!!! Who were they and did they know what was going on.

    Now in all fairness I do not know if the cop was out of line or not as we do not see the entire incident and we have a horrible camera angle on what the guy was doing just prior to being slammed.:cool:

    DeltaSigchi4 you told me that you want to become a cop. Well I hope you do not jump to conclusions we you go to calls for service. Who knows maybe one day you will cahse a robbery suspect catch up to him tackle him and punch him once in order to stop him from fighting you. Then you will turn on the news and see a 15 second clip of you tackling the suspect and punching him. THen you can respond to everyone who say, "I know what that video shows and that cop was out of line." :confused:

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    DeltaSigChi4's picture

    I think it is a lot more dangerous to throw someone like that at that velocity on the back of their neck/back on steel steps than punch someone a few times. But to make matters worse, the guy wasn't running from a stolen car, he was apparently just trying to break up a fight. In my personal opinion, it just isn't necessary to put someone's health in peril like that by pulling a stunt like that uniformed officer did. I'd like to hear his side of the story. A lot of LVMPD train at the gyms I go to, so I'll ask around.

    E

    Your rating: None
    KibunInc's picture

    Definently ask around as I would like to hear the entire story before I say what was necessary.

    I feel you missed the point I was trying to make. The point about the stolen car incident was jsut to show how people will make comments without knowing what happened.

    In your last response you agian say that it was apparent that the guy was only trying to break up the fight. Could you let me know where in the video it is apparent because I am not seeing it. Yes someone said it but I already covered that above (The stolen car incident example).

    In my previous response I said the guy could have been hitting the person on the ground. I was just giving an example we do not know what he was doing. He could have been breaking up the fight, hitting the person, choking the person or who knows. The point is that we can not see to say anything is apparant. This the point I am trying to make. If the Officer is at fault then it will come out, but lets not jump to conclusions.

    Don't take my post wrong as I am happy you are responding to these threads. I am going to give a quick lesson in use of force by Police here.

    The way the law is written is that a Police Officer can escalate force above what another person is using. This is regarding both defensefor the Officer or to provide protection for the public. So as an example if a person uses his fist we can use, fist, batons, Pepper spray (But probably not in a crowded area), taser, etc. If the person uses a weapon we can immediately shoot.

    When I see the cop slam the guy I know under the law all the guy had to do was not comply with the Officers orders to stop. Now lets take as an example if the cop never gave orders and just slammed the guy. It is still legal as we are not required to follow any steps in the use of force. Meaning if I can justify the force I do not have to go, step 1 Give verbal command, step 2 If subject does not listen move to control hold, step 3 if the subject still resist use baton, etc. Now comes the part of justifying ones actions, if a person is only verbally not listening to us we can not go to (Step 10) and pull out our gun and shoot the guy. There would be no justification. But in this case he ony used a take down technique so the justification should be very easy. Yes there are steps there but that is the way it goes. Sometimes a person thinks we must identify ourselves before we act. Although this can be a good thing to do it is not always a luxury that we have. I am going to give an easy example in an active shooter killing people on a playground. I can engage that person and shoot him without every identifying myself as there is a need for immediate protection of human life. I know this is an extreme example but in the fight the Officer is surround by people that he does not know, could be good or bad people but he does know that they are into MMA (At least like to watch it). It is a crowd situation which can quickly escalat out of control.

    Sorry for the long reply the only point I am trying to make is do not jump to conclusion. Lets see the facts and go from there. Take care.

    Your rating: None
    KibunInc's picture

    Deltasigchi4 do not take my responses as a shot at you. I am glad that you are posting here. I try to give insight into how Police work so others can understand. I give these points as I of course understand Police work and I like to study case laws. I know that you said you were considering being a cop so I take a little more time to explain things to you, but do not take it wrong. By all means bring in videos or questions about Police actions as I do not mind answering them. And yes I have seen videos of cops really screwing up. :cool:

    Your rating: None
    DeltaSigChi4's picture

    There is a thread on subfighter® I believe where there are individuals who claim they were in nearby sections. It may have been the case that the man in the affliction® attire that was thrown on the steel steps was indeed choking another gentleman, albeit a hold he might have applied to stop the guy from hitting other person[s], at least according to this aforementioned hearsay. I'll ask every metro cop I see at the gym in the upcoming week to see if they know what happened.

    I appreciate your brief summary of different levels of force. I'm glad I get to learn more from an inside perspective. I'd like to personally know why police assigned to Rage Against the Machine [RATM] shows must always utilise CS on a grand scale, specifically around large groups of people, the majority of which weren't doing anything besides enjoying live music. Now we get to enjoy CS in our nose, mouth, and throat as well. :mad:

    E

    Your rating: None
    KibunInc's picture

    I am glad that you like CS because I hate that shit (I know you were joking about liking it). I would not want to work a Rage concert (By the way I like their music). Once a mosh pit gets going it can easily go sideways quickly. Using gas to clear a crowde does work really good but you have to be careful about using it inside. We have used it in riots but only while outisde. Inside an autotorium I would have to refer to the local PD's policy manual and the individual situation.

    Your rating: None
    beowulf's picture

    DeltaSigChi4;23704 wrote:
    But to make matters worse, the guy wasn't running from a stolen car, he was apparently just trying to break up a fight.

    I received info from a guy (not a cop) who was present during this melee...

    the dude that got tossed, wasn't as innocent as you make him out to be. there was a brawl in the stands. the cops arrived at the scene and saw one guy choking another guy and they were forced to separate them. it wasn't exactly gentle, but this was a violent fight in the stands with women and innocent bystanders at risk.

    you got people falling down steps, tumbling over chairs, and swinging at each other on slicked concrete floors. it's not exactly time for some dude (other than a cop) to jump into a fight to play Captain Save-A-Hoe. the guy jumped on the big-titty chick's dude to hold him down. he was probably just trying to help, but all the cop saw was one guy on top of another guy, choking the shit out of him.

    to put things in proper perspective, you have to realize the situation. if it was only two people on a grass field on a sunny day, then you have time to walk up and look at the situation. when it's 4-5 people fighting in the stands at an event with 15,000 people in the building, you don't have that option.

    Your rating: None
    DeltaSigChi4's picture

    Right. And Ray Sefo and his brother were involved, but only in the sense that Ray was attacked without rhyme/reason. In no way deserving of getting thrown on the back of their neck on unforgiving steel steps. Same category I put the gentleman with the Affliction® attire. That's just my view. I understand others have other views, and I respect those views.

    E

    Your rating: None
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